Allo allo, what's goin on in here?

Arguing? No? Ahh, healthy debate.

That's good

Nothing us humans do sexually anymore is considered natural, so I think trying to define it here is wasted effort.

If the dude doesn't want to have love with girls and just wants a fondle, fine. But I can see that only going down well with girls who don't want love before marriage - the whole point of foreplay warming a girl up for love. If a girl did it to a guy - she'd be called cruel. But as long as you make it clear there's not going to be any love, I don't see the problem.

"the whole point of foreplay warming a girl up for love. If a girl did it to a guy - she'd be called cruel."

I couldn't agree less.

In my opinion and experience, "foreplay", or non-penetrative love, is a very rewarding activity for both sexes.

The suggestion that oral love, for example, is just a warm-up for penetrative love I completely disagree with.

All I can say is, if the woman I was with at the time got me so aroused and my appendage was more looking like a giraffes neck and she didn't want it, then she would have to go and f**k off.

Sory if I have offended anyon with my post, but that's how it is with me.

Fair points, all, Swiss.

I guess I was defining foreplay as everything but penetrative love.

To me, it's all about enjoyment for both partners, and how you get that enjoyment is fairly unimportant, as long as it works.

I wasn't really discussing the specific case that started the thread, I was responding to some of the other posts.

However, in that specific case, yes, clear communication would be extremely important (as, indeed, it always is, in my opinion).