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Home >> Anything else >> Creator or No Creator

09.01.2011, 12:48 quote

theresaw

Handsel said something (and now he's deleted it) in another thread, about there being not Creator.

WARNING:
I love a good discussion and I realise that this subject won't be for everyone, so please just ignore this if you're going to be offended by it, don't even read it if it's going to upset you.

But this one is for those of us who are brave enough have our spiritual beliefs challenged and are not going to be offended, even if the subject matter may be offensive in nature to some. This is not, in any way, a personal attack, it is simply a discussion where intelligent people state their understanding and thoughts.

I have a firm belief in a Creator Being, God to some of us. However, as a scientist by qualification, I recognise that scientifically we cannot prove that there is a God, none of our spiritual beliefs can actually be proven, in fact, there appears to be more against our spiritual beliefs than for them.

I'd like to start this topic - which may prove to be fairly long winded, I know, but I think there may be some of us who may enjoy it.

Anyone up for it?

 

10.01.2011, 12:06 quote

theresaw

handsel wrote:
theresaw wrote:
Handsel said something (and now he's deleted it) in another thread, about there being not Creator.
...
Anyone up for it?

I'm up for it! My post was still there the last time I looked! Confused
It was in connection with the idea that our Creator (should He exist) would be disappointed with us.

Here it is again:
"I find this puzzling (as an atheist), since (by your definition) He made us and (apparently) we haven't worked out the way He wanted!
Either that, or we are the way we are intended to be - and, if so, how can you blame humanity for His shoddy workmanship?
How can you blame the watch for going fast, or slow, or for ticking too loudly? Surely it's the watchmaker who's at fault?"

Answer me that, or alternatively (as a scientist) kindly lay out your 'evidence' for your belief in the existence of this Creator.

Personally, I think Gods and religions are the towering, bloody monuments to man's arrogance and the sooner we can leave that fairy-story stuff behind, the sooner we will grow up. I'd like to imagine that some day - some time in the future - that will happen. It's either that, or be blasted into oblivion when hand-held nuclear weapons replaces the Uzis etc.



Handsel said: "My post was still there the last time I looked! Confused"

Oops, sorry, Embarassed my bad! I must have been in such a hurry that I just didn't look carefully enough!



Handsel said: "I find this puzzling (as an atheist), since (by your definition) He made us and (apparently) we haven't worked out the way He wanted!
Either that, or we are the way we are intended to be - and, if so, how can you blame humanity for His shoddy workmanship?
How can you blame the watch for going fast, or slow, or for ticking too loudly? Surely it's the watchmaker who's at fault?"


Well, I think that we're still in our development stage, as planned. As we all know we're getting better - or worse (whichever way you look at it), even the universe that we know is still expanding according to scientists (according to the big bang theorists, the world that we know is still expanding from the big band) - and we have "developed" since the time that "man" started.
There is a theory that man and dolphin are at a similar stage of evolution: both have five digits and the brain is about the same size and dolphins are the only other mammal know to have love for pleasure and not just for procreation. If we assume that dolphins are at the same stage of development as mankind, then in my opinion (which isn't worth terribly much) the dolphin has done better than homo sapien, having not developed a single weapon of war (to our knowledge), but they still farm fish to eat and they don't often get involved in fighting amongst their own kind (well certainly not as often as we do!).

Now, to get back to your statement I don't actually think that our Creator (if indeed He/She/It exists because scientifically we cannot prove any such thing) will be disappointed with us at all - that's just an emotion that I, as a human, attribute to Him/Her/It.
I think that we are so simplistic in our thoughts and actions we are very easy to predict and so our every move is known to our Creator long before we actual take that action - so there can be no disappointment.
Also, emotions are only something that we experience here - I think that we lose emotions as we evolve (perhaps as we grow more God-like - as we evolve in the spirit world, if, again, that takes place, and again, that can't be proven scientifically).

So effectively I am in agreement with you - I don't think that the Creator-being (if, as you say, such a Thing exists) is to "blame" or is unhappy in any way.


Handsel said: "Personally, I think Gods and religions are the towering, bloody monuments to man's arrogance and the sooner we can leave that fairy-story stuff behind, the sooner we will grow up. I'd like to imagine that some day - some time in the future - that will happen. It's either that, or be blasted into oblivion when hand-held nuclear weapons replaces the Uzis etc."

I believe that spiritual beliefs stem from mankinds' fear.
If you go back in history, you will see that there always have been pagan rites that are carried out, generally involving sacrifice (this is carried out even in the Christian belief at the moment in the sacrifice of the 'Son of God'/'Lamb of God' and the taking of the body and the blood)to some god so that there will be no anger on the village/area and its people.

As time goes on, the rulers take over the power of the 'gods' in many ways and the "sacrifices" start being given to the rulers who are often the priests in the villages/area who accept the "sacrifices" on behalf of the gods.

Even in the Christian world in more ancient times this is true.
As the bible comes into existence, it is "owned" by the rulers and priests of the time and it is changed according to the needs and wants of those who rule.
The bible that exists today is not the one that was originally written by those who were believed to have been "inspired by God".

But even so, the Christian belief (and I speak mainly of the Christian belief because I know more about it than the others) has many things in it that come from other pagan belief systems.
Jesus was the 13th "saviour/god" born to a virgin mother in a row in recorded history, Ra having been one of the better known ones before Jesus's time. All of those 13 are recorded as having very similar stories, born of a virgin, and "sacrificed" so that others would go to "heaven" despite their sins.

The date of Christmas was chosen as 25 December despite the fact that it was proven that he must have been born in September as a result of the "star" that the Magi saw most likely being Haley's comet; but 25 December was a time of celebration of a pagan god at the time and in order for the Romans to overcome the people worshipping that pagan god (a god to do with the winter solstice, I don't remember the name), they selected the date to coincide with that one.

I could go on and on but I won't.
Christian theological ministers are given all this information when they train, but they do not pass it on to their congregtions because many people in the congregations like to believe in the actual story of the virgin birth (despite the fact that we all know that it's physically and scientifically impossible and what organised Creator, who also created science, would suddenly go against the very laws of science that He had created?)

But in effect, what I am trying to say is that FEAR is an emotion that rules us all, in my opinion, it is the strongest of all emotions, and living in fear of something (even if it is in the life after death) is what makes people believe in something spiritual generally.

I must therefore disagree with your opinion that it's as a result of man's arrogance.

Well, that's just my 2 cents worth!

 

11.01.2011, 14:18 quote

theresaw

I enjoy what everyone has put on this thread.

I agree with TB that there is a huge difference between religion and spirituality.
I also like the information that he brought us from that site - there are many theories that are brought to us from spirit (which as I said before, we can't prove scientifically), but as a spiritualist and a spirit medium I can't help but believe in.

As I look back on the work that I've done as a medium, I am blown away by proof that I've been given over the years - where does it come from? Surely it can't come from me? While I can't prove that spirit exists and I can't prove that God exists scientifically, sure that information that I'm provided with must prove something?

On one occasion I was asked to help find a teenager who had gone missing. His parents had reported him missing at their local police station I had been told. All I knew what that I'd had a phone call from a woman asking me to help find this young man - she gave me no information - she just told me that he was missing. She asked me what information I needed and I said that I didn't need anything else. I knew also that the woman who had called me was from South Africa, because her telephone number had shown up on my cellphone.

The information that I got back after I'm prayed about it was that the young man was at his home, but that his life was in danger.

I called the woman back and, not knowing whether she was family or not, asked her at which police station he had been reported missing. She said that she would call the family and find out. She duly came back to me and told me.

I called the police station and asked to speak to the relevant officer in charge of the case. Fortunately, he was someone who was willing to hear from a psychic (as you can imagine, not everybody is) and he told me that the body was still on the "missing people" list and that although he was just about to go off duty, he would go round to the boy's home and asked if I wanted to go with him. (It turned out that the home and police station were in the vicinity where I lived. I declined.

The police found that the boy had never left home and the father had actually been keeping him tied up in a room.

The police removed him from the home and took him to a safe house. I never followed up after that - it became the police's business.

But it reminded me of the case of a woman who had been on tv in the USA, pleading for people to search for her missing children when it was found later that she had left them in the back of her car and pushed it into a river and drowned them.

But I have always found that case particularly interesting. Surely if that information had come from my mind I would have fabricated something else? How could I have decided (in my mind) that the child was still at home?

As a psychic you test yourself again and again - you're always wanting to know whether the information you get is just your imagination or whether it's real.
You don't want to lead people astray - you genuinely want to help them.

So when you say your prayer before you get help, you not only ask for protection (we never mess with the world of spirit without asking for protection) but you ask for guidance to AND the ability to distinguish between what is your own imagination and what is from a higher source than that.

I don't know, I can tell you lots of other incidents that still blow my mind.

So, I ask you as I ask myself, is there life after death? Are there spirits out there helping us? Or is there just some part of my mind that knows something that I just sometimes can access?

 
 
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