I think women do mostly take the initiative.

It took me until I was quite old to figure out that it isn't usually men who initiate but women. What I'm talking about is that women often prepare the ground so that guys can ask them out. I'm not sure if the guys concerned figure out that the way is being cleared for them. Maybe the guys concerned just feel comfortable asking or maybe they realise that they have been 'invited' to ask. I don't know.

Once I twigged this, the whole thing became a lot easier.

Of course, you (men, that is) shouldn't think that a woman who makes it easier for you to ask her out is super-keen on you. Far from it: you are being given the chance to shine but you can be dropped at a moment's notice. That's just the rules of the game (though it's not a game at all).

I've run this past friends and women mostly agree. Guys are usually non-plussed by it though.

The best way to see what I'm talking about is to go out (on your own even. In fact, especially on your own) and watch women who are interested in someone. Once you lose your own involvement and just settle down and watch, you can see in action the thing I'm talking about. Most of us men don't notice this - especially when we are younger - because we have so much noise going on in our heads.

I'd be interested to hear what others think. You can check what I'm saying easily - go to a pub (one that women feel comfortable in - not some smoke-ridden or sports-bar hellhole, but a place where friends of both sexes go) with a paper or a book and watch what happens.

One you get it, you can save yourself a lot of wasted 'wanting'.

Redoctober,

It's really hard to describe what they do because it's lots of small things that add up to a feeling.

I think that one thing they (women) start from is a different place than men. For example, they will encourage a guy to be part of their group of male friends for at least a while. Or they will become interested in someone from their group of friends.

This is the first place where they differ from men: they don't rush in and reveal: 'I'm sweet on you.' They let things take their time and watch. Men are more likely to make it really obvious that they fancy someone from the get-go (usually by making lots of eye-contact or 'conversation-contact').

Men would be wise to do the same as women. Or perhaps a better way to put it would be to say: men would be wise to give women the opportunity to get to watch how they (the man) treats friends - male and female - and wait to see if his manner plus looks, etc, appeal to anyone. For a guy, it's no good hoping it will appeal to a woman he likes. It will appeal to who it appeals to and not appeal to those it doesn't appeal to. Whether a guy likes a woman or not has no or little effect on whether she likes him and his 'ways with people and things and life'.

What I'm really saying above is that women often make their moves against a different background to the background that men make their moves against. Women get to know a broader picture of all the guys they care about, whether friends or fancied, before beginning to be prepared to encourage a guy to feel comfortable making a move. Men tend to go 'she's cool and I need to show her I'm manly by making a big, bold move on her'. Which is completely different thing to what women do.

The first lesson of the above for men is: form group friendships first (of men and women) and encourage newcomers to join your group of friends and feel comfortable doing so. Don't hit on the women among them just because you fancy them for their looks.

If we accept that women tend to do the above, we can see that they can operate ('operate' meaning 'begin to prepare a path for a guy they like') from a different place to the place strangers operate (have to prepare that path) from. If they are in a group of friends they can show relatively subtly more interest in a guy. This is where I've noticed the first part of the 'path-preparing' I mentioned in the earlier post. I meant that this kind of environment gives women ample opportunity to help a guy 'get it'.

Men often operate as strangers, just moving in on complete strangers.

By the same token, if you (women) are not operating amid a group of friends or from a safe-feeling place, it's much harder to make a guy feel 'approved of' without obviously showing an interest. How women subtly show an interest - in my experience - is by being willing to go to places that the guy concerned is talking about going to, whether it's lunch or some weekend jaunt. Or by having a view on things he talks about (without always having a contrary view), or by tolerating BS or poor decisions from him that you wouldn't bother with if you weren't interested. And by generally being willing to engage in his conversation. Sometimes women will ask for help on 'men' things like fixing cars, or moving house, etc, but I haven't seen much of that. I supsect that in this day and age most women recognise that the guy is likely to feel like cheap labour if offered that kind of 'opportunity'.

Something I've noticed myself is when work colleagues who I considered I didn't know that well invited me to their party on the far side of London (or wherever), where normally they don't obviously associate with me. Where this has happened and they didn't invite all or many of us, I've (belatedly) come to realise that they were giving me an opportunity. An opportunity not to ask them out but to be present (which may mean to spend more time talking or to ask them out or to be observed/checked out out by friends, etc). Or to join the group of friends and 'known quantities' from which men get picked.

Or - staying with work - coming down to your office to ask something that could just as easily have been asked on the phone or by email.

Another thing I've noticed is where women will pretend it's just friends but will put themselves into some discomfort while a 'friend'. Eg, a woman I worked with who had to go to an evening work-social event with me and who afterwards sat outside a cafe in the freezing cold into the early hours (as I was wont to do in those days) yakking.

None of these things means anything on their own. But when you see several things like them from one person, then you are probably having a path prepared for you. This is why I suggested guys go to a pub with the paper and watch what women do with other guys. When you see it, it's recognisable. Not necessarily obvious but, after a while, recognisable.

An observation I have about many men who find women 'difficult' is that their real problem is not that they are unattractive or shy or whatever. It's that they don't know how to be a good friend with other guys. So they focus on getting a girlfriend instead of being a fun, happy person who hangs around with a fun-loving, happy crowd. If they focused a bit more on being part of an easy-going crowd, then women would be attracted to the fun, the smiles, the easy conversation and the safety of the group of friends. That's much more attractive to women than a rampant, lonely, 35 year old guy hitting on them. That's precisely why TV ads for toothpaste, etc, always show groups of friends having fun. It's not just the smiles they are showing off, it's th social 'success' of having fun in a crowd.

Actually, in the context of flirting, what I'm saying may not be true, because flirting is a different thing. Flirting is cheap thrills compared to relationship-forming. In flirting you don't care about the outcome so you can take bigger risks without caring if the flirtee doesn't flirt back or if he mistakes the flirting for genuine interest.

Hope this answers your question. I could think of more if I put my mind to it but it's hard to put it down coherently.

Cheekyarse, yes, people-watching. If we (meaning men) put our own interest in who's hot and whose not aside and watched more of what's going on we could learn a heck of a lot!

The last guy to take an interest (from here actually) had to tell me outright he fancied me before I could see it.

I think i am half aware of signals but terrified I may have read them wrong. And the other side of it is I'm terrified of giving off the wrong signals.

I must apologise at this point if i become garbled as i've had a bit to drink (bad day) and I'm not a drinker.

I'm so scared of the whole thing, that I tend to come across as tho' I'm not interested in some one (I think). I'm a people watcher and can recognise a lot of patterns in people, but the 'mating' game (for lack of any other expression) is beyond me. Too many fears of f*cking up and hurting someone/myself.

Cheekyarse, yes, people-watching. If we (meaning men) put our own interest in who's hot and whose not aside and watched more of what's going on we could learn a heck of a lot!



Very true

ladies should always make the first move

Its very flattering when a lady makes the first move, but as the knowledgeable fellow above mentions, its often quite subtle and as most men are rubbish with signals (even a half-naked lady with a sign saying 'take me now', cant be obvious enough sometimes). Its a hard world for men now as we have to be very pc, they to understand what the women is saying (consciously and subconsciously), then not come on too strong, or again no be too much of a namby pamby about it either. Its a very fine line to get right, and lets face it I know I often brain it up. (I know im rambling here), but we are all scared of getting knocked back again, and again, and again. Unless you have the confidence of Arnie himself, or just don’t care and go for a numbers type of play (ie ask enough ladies one will say yes), but there’s no romance in that either.

A lady will not understand this, but the hardest thing in the world for a man to do is approach a group of ladies to try to make an opening to speak the special lady of your eye. All of her friends will play a running defence to stop you ruining her evening/life/future unborn children who aren’t even twinkling on the eye. So what are we to do, we are shy to do that on the whole, and your too scared to show you have any feelings towards us too, so sounds like we are doomed to test-tubes...
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Today I led you the the edge of Oblivion...

Tomorrow FORWARD!

Well if any woman buys me a pint of Guinness im theirs lol

I have no problems approaching men......if I know they are at least somewhat interested!